Can you help explain my rapid weight loss?

[boonie stomper]

What, red cover...((goes & grabs white with red & blue title book to check)) OK wait aminute... that is the "induction menu" for use in jumpstarting weight loss after long past your first induction right?? Or ...someone forgot to revise that page...

[shelly808]

Diver Down,
When I read Everlosings reply to your post I just thought she was expressing that the integrity of the diet is very important. Very important to people like me who had a pre-determined negative attitude about atkins for many many years....I agree though..."garbage food" was maybe too much. But she was definitely trying to help you and others, like me! before I got here... that is apparent.

My personal "opinion" about atkins was determined by seeing a coworker do the diet for a couple of years...as I find out 15 years later -- the WRONG way.

Boy oh boy, I am reluctant to say this because you really gave it to Everlosing, but... your reply to her seemed way over the top.

I know what it is like having to defend yourself and to often feel like you are being attacked....but sometimes we have to watch our reflexes, they can be over reactive...and a little, well, mean.

The people here ARE very nice and very helpful!

Take care, and btw....you lucky friggn' duck!
Shell

[Diver Down]

No worries, shelly, I just took offense at the notion I wasn't on Atkins as I sit here going through a difficult Induction phase. What other diet do they think I'm on?! I've worked hard to reduce my carbohydrate intake to far less than 20 carbs per day, I've eliminated breads, fruit, pastas, and the like, and basically subscribed to the fundamental principles of the diet. Am I living according to every single word in the latest revision of the Atkins bible? Perhaps not, but for that I shouldn't be cast a heretic.

Of what am I guilty, drinking caffeine? I don't recall where it was written in stone it was absolutely forbidden (advised against, naturally, but forbidden...since when?!). And the net-carb products, Atkins sells them as safe during Induction so it's hard to throw stones at me for using them during emergencies. I am aware that Dr. Atkins caved in to pressure to offer such products and does not endorse them, but that doesn't change the fact that at their most one of them is considered 5 net carbs (and 9 total). Considering I'm primarily eating meat, I've got about 20 carbs to blow on whatever I feel like, ideally vegetables, but it's up to me to decide.

I've always found the strength of Atkins to be its flexibility - by that I mean, it lays down simple-to-follow principles, but allows the individual so many choices for how to fill in the blanks. Other diets prescribe what you eat, when, and in what portions. I get the feeling some of the people here are taking that particular approach to Atkins using that book as dogma. That kind of mentality will do far more to discourage newcomers to Atkins than any mention I make of drinking some Coke Zero during my induction.

[Chicklady]

But Diver....WHY would you lower your carbs to less than 20? Atkins chose that number 'cause almost everyone can lose quite well with that amount....and those that can't go on the fat diet . Now granted, the good Doc says "no more than 20" and zero surely isn't more than 20, unless there's some new math I don't know about.....but 20 grams would give you such a tastebud treat(never mind nutrients), why deny yourself?

[Chicklady]

Originally Posted by boonie stomper

What, red cover...((goes & grabs white with red & blue title book to check)) OK wait aminute... that is the "induction menu" for use in jumpstarting weight loss after long past your first induction right?? Or ...someone forgot to revise that page...

Boonie....This chapter is introduced as....you've read the book and you still don't know where to start, well here's a 7 day induction menu for you. This isn't a post maintainance or OWL menu. It is a gentle "idiot-proof" meal plan for those who looked at all the charts of acceptable and unacceptable foods and rolled their eyes in agony.

[not2late]

Originally Posted by Diver Down

No worries, shelly, I just took offense at the notion I wasn't on Atkins as I sit here going through a difficult Induction phase. What other diet do they think I'm on?! I've worked hard to reduce my carbohydrate intake to far less than 20 carbs per day, I've eliminated breads, fruit, pastas, and the like, and basically subscribed to the fundamental principles of the diet. Am I living according to every single word in the latest revision of the Atkins bible? Perhaps not, but for that I shouldn't be cast a heretic.

If you play basketball, using a football and running around bases to score a touch-down, is it still basketball? And would basketball adherents recognize your basketball as the official basketball?

Atkins is a specific low carb diet. There are many other low carb diets out there, but they are not Atkins. This concept seems to befuddle plenty of people. I think it's more a result of "brand identification" than of ignorance. For example, in the US, the word "kleenex" has come to mean any facial tissue, eventhough there are brands like Puffs and Scott. The word "xerox" has come to mean photocopying. So people say "Atkins" and associate it with any old low carb diet there is.

Of what am I guilty, drinking caffeine? I don't recall where it was written in stone it was absolutely forbidden (advised against, naturally, but forbidden...since when?!).

Chapter 11, Induction Acceptable Foods List Beverage Footnote: "Excessive caffeine my cause untable blood sugar and should be avoided by those who suspect they are caffeine depened. Everyone should try to avoid caffeine."

And the net-carb products, Atkins sells them as safe during Induction so it's hard to throw stones at me for using them during emergencies. I am aware that Dr. Atkins caved in to pressure to offer such products and does not endorse them, but that doesn't change the fact that at their most one of them is considered 5 net carbs (and 9 total).

Chapter 11, Rules of Induction Rule 5: Eat nothing that is not on the acceptable foods list." So if those Atkins products have ingredients that are not on the Induction Acceptable Food List, then it is not to be eaten according to Rule 5.

Considering I'm primarily eating meat, I've got about 20 carbs to blow on whatever I feel like, ideally vegetables, but it's up to me to decide.

Chapter 11 Rules of Induction Rule 3: Eat no more than 20 grams a day of carbohydrate, most of which must come in the form of salad greens and other vegetables.

I've always found the strength of Atkins to be its flexibility - by that I mean, it lays down simple-to-follow principles, but allows the individual so many choices for how to fill in the blanks.

Atkins does have flexibility, as witnessed by the Foods List on Induction, and by the Foods List on On-Going Weight Loss Phase and Pre-Maintenance Phase. That is where the flexibility comes in.

Other diets prescribe what you eat, when, and in what portions.

So does Atkins.

Atkins tells you what to eat (please refer to the Induction Acceptable Foods List and the Carbohydrate Ladder Foods of the OWl And Pre-Maintenance Phases.)

Atkins tells you when to eat, Rule #1 :Eat either three regular size meals a day or four or five smaller meals. Do not skip meals or go more than six waking hours without eating.

And Atkins tells you in what portions: the cups measurements of vegetables, the amounts of cream and cheese, and the net carb additions during OWL and Pre-Maintenance Phases.

I get the feeling some of the people here are taking that particular approach to Atkins using that book as dogma.

Again, if you play basketball, using a football and running around bases to score a touch-down, is it still basketball? And will basketball adherents recognize your basketball as the official basketball?

As I explained above Atkins is a specific low carb diet, with specific rules. We go by Atkins here on the Atkins Diet Bulletin Board to avoid confusion.

And as was pointed out to you earlier, it isn't fair for you to ask us to troubleshoot your diet when you aren't following Atkins, because our answers are based on Atkins principles. Additionally it may not be safe for you to use what you are told here and apply it to your diet. Again, we use Atkins principles so the information here is specific to Atkins, not to what you are doing. So how accurately you can apply Atkins principles to it, is anyone's guess.

That kind of mentality will do far more to discourage newcomers to Atkins than any mention I make of drinking some Coke Zero during my induction.

ADBB has been around since 2003---maybe earlier because Tom started it as a list group, if I recall correctly. People have been coming here steadily since. And we have had members come to us actually relieved because they were on boards where if you wanted to eat chocolate chip cookies during Induction, that was okay as long as you didn't go over your carbs too much.

This board goes by the book---Dr. Atkins book.

[Georgiana]

Originally Posted by Diver Down

I didn't come here to brag, I came here for technical answers as to why my weight loss has been so rapid during this latest induction.

I believe your question has already been answered. You would understand even better if you read the book, because everything is nicely explained there.

Originally Posted by Diver Down

I'm interested in communicating with rational people about the weight loss principles involved with Atkins as a means of understanding my own weight loss, not arguing with dogmatic fanatics. I believe it's important to question and understand why a given proposition is true or false, not just take it on faith because it appeared in a book somewhere.

The book explains quite well why most things concerning this diet are as they are -- it does not simply state facts. The Atkins diet website does state facts. Chapter 18 in DANDR does state facts. But if you read the whole book, you will see that it is not a collection of facts lacking any rational support.

What proposition from the book are you looking to understand? Maybe we can help if you tell us.

Originally Posted by Diver Down

Yes, thankfully...this place is dogmatic enough!

Well. If this place is so horrid, there is no one forcing you (or anyone for that matter) to hang around. We want every member of the Board to succeed on Atkins, to encounter as little obstacles as possible on their way to goal, to be healthy and to be able to maintain their goal weight without restarting Atkins over and over again. Our experience here tells us that this happens when members are following Atkins the way Dr. Atkins designed this way of eating, not their own "modified Atkins" plan. For these reasons, we are advising everyone to follow the Atkins rules laid down in the book. I'm sorry if, in your opinion, this classifies us as "dogmatic fanatics". Personally, I would classify those who advise others to follow the rules of Atkins as responsible and carrying members.

You wrote in another thread:

Originally Posted by Diver Down

I've also tried Atkins a couple times [...] my first attempt was six weeks, the second was three weeks...

Did you ever think that not following the Atkins diet the way Dr. Atkins wrote its rules could have contributed to your past failures?

Originally Posted by Diver Down

If I had wanted someone to give me an evaluation of my diet, I would have asked for it.

It is impossible to give you an explanation for the weight loss you've experienced without evaluating your diet. And, whether you like it or not, sometimes this evaluation will mean pointing out things you are doing wrong. We are not doing this in order to annoy you, but because we want you to succeed on Atkins this time around.

Originally Posted by Diver Down

On average, my carb count has been 0-5 grams per day, not including the day or two when I consumed a low carb bar or ice cream snack...so I'm a little confused what you mean. Even assuming net carbs are a complete fraud, the total for one of the ice cream bars I consumed was 9g of carbs with a net of 5g. But even at the full 9g, taking into account I had only eaten meat the rest of the day, I remained under 20g by a large margin.

A diet whose only rule is eating less than 20 g of net carbohydrates is a low carb diet, but it is not Atkins. Atkins has a few additional rules, which you will find in the book or in some sticky threads on the Board.

Originally Posted by Diver Down

I am aware that Dr. Atkins caved in to pressure to offer such products and does not endorse them, but that doesn't change the fact that at their most one of them is considered 5 net carbs (and 9 total).

Originally Posted by Diver Down

I just took offense at the notion I wasn't on Atkins as I sit here going through a difficult Induction phase. What other diet do they think I'm on?!

Again, just because you are eating under 20 net carbs it does not mean you are following Atkins. Not eating vegetables is not Atkins Induction. Otherwise we would be calling "Atkins Induction" diets like The Doctor's Quick Weight Loss Diet, and I'm sure Dr. Stillman would strongly disagree.

Originally Posted by Diver Down

I'll definitely be adding veggies over the next week or so, as I ramp up toward my next phase.

Vegetables are part of the first phase of Atkins as well, not only of OWL.

Originally Posted by Diver Down

Other diets prescribe what you eat, when, and in what portions.

The Induction phase of Atkins prescribes what foods you can eat and, for some of them (vegetables, cream, avocados, olives, etc.), in what portions. You'll find the list of foods acceptable during Induction somewhere around page 123 in the DANDR. Atkins also prescribes what foods you can eat during each of the OWL rungs and in what quantities. Same for Pre-Maintenance.

Originally Posted by Diver Down

I've eliminated breads, fruit, pastas, and the like, and basically subscribed to the fundamental principles of the diet.

We might be misunderstanding you... Could you please list the fundamental principles of Atkins you have subscribed to? Maybe then we can clear things up.

Originally Posted by Diver Down

Am I living according to every single word in the latest revision of the Atkins bible?

We do not use "the latest revision of the Atkins bible" here. What we do is go by the rules of the Atkins diet from Dr. Atkins New Diet Revolution, 2002, which is not the latest edition of the book.

Originally Posted by Diver Down

I've eaten one or two carb bars over a period of several days, snacking in little bits, while I did have a net 5 carb ice cream snack the other night.

Originally Posted by Diver Down

And the net-carb products, Atkins sells them as safe during Induction so it's hard to throw stones at me for using them during emergencies.

I am really sorry you had so many emergencies in the past 6 days that you had to have bars and ice cream. Maybe you can pack a few veggies to snack on next time you're on the run? Add some fat to them (for e.g., butter, cream cheese, boiled eggs) and you'll have great substitutions for frankenfoods. Anyway, I am positive you will give up bars/ice cream after this hectic period you go through will have passed.

Originally Posted by Diver Down

Considering I'm primarily eating meat, I've got about 20 carbs to blow on whatever I feel like, ideally vegetables, but it's up to me to decide.

Actually, if you read the rules of Atkins, you will see that it is not up to you to decide whether you are eating vegetables or not. Well, at least not if you follow Atkins.

Originally Posted by Diver Down

I'm eating steadily, plenty of meats and cheeses, but maintaining a very low carb intake. I'm even drinking diet sodas with caffeine, sodium, and aspartame. Not to mention having some carb bars and low carb ice cream treats along the way. Why am I losing weight at this pace, even doing things which are known to slow weight loss?

Originally Posted by Diver Down

That kind of mentality will do far more to discourage newcomers to Atkins than any mention I make of drinking some Coke Zero during my induction.

If a newbie reads your post and sees that you've lost X lbs in Y days by not eating vegetables and consuming aspartame, he or she will do what you are doing, expecting the same results. Then they'll be disappointed for not losing weight or not losing as much as they had expected, and they'll give up "Atkins" ('cuz this darn diet is just BS and doesn't work) when in fact they were not doing Atkins in the first place.

Dr. Atkins worked with thousands of patients and his diet proved to give fantastic results in terms of weight loss and health. Dr. Atkins however did not tell his patients to skip vegetables or to drink diet drinks sweetened with aspartame, which is why not having veggies is not Atkins. Since we are doing Atkins here, we do not know what are the long term effects of the way of eating you are following. Hence, we will always advise members to do Atkins by the book, so that they increase their chances of success on Atkins.

[not2late]

I forgot to add....

In the past the caffeine footnote has had come controversy, because people interpret the word "avoid" as "optional". So I've taken the liberty to look up "avoid" in an on-line thesaurus.

avoid synonym | Thesaurus.com

Main Entry:avoidPart of Speech:verbDefinition:refrain or stay away from; preventSynonyms:abstain, avert, bypass, circumlocute, circumvent, deflect, desist, ditch, divert, dodge, duck, elude, escape, eschew, evade, fake out, fend off, flee, give the slip, hide, hold off, jump, keep clear, lay low*, obviate, recoil, run for cover, shake, shake and bake, shake off, shirk, shrink from, shuffle off, shun, shy, sidestep, skip out on, skip town, skip*, skirt*, stay away, stay out, steer clear of, step aside, turn aside, ward off, weave, withdraw Notes:avert means 'prevent, turn away' and avoid means 'stay clear of, shun'Antonyms:face, meet, seek, want
* = informal/non-formal usage
Roget's 21st Century Thesaurus, Third Edition
Copyright © 2009 by the Philip Lief Group.
Cite This Source

Main Entry:avoidPart of Speech:verbDefinition:To keep away from.Synonyms:burke, bypass, circumvent, dodge, duck, elude, escape, eschew, evade, get around, shun Roget's II: The New Thesaurus, Third Edition
by the Editors of the American Heritage® Dictionary.
Copyright © 2003, 1995. Published by Houghton Mifflin. All rights reserved.
Cite This Source

So "avoid", in this particular instance, means the same thing as "abstain", which means the same thing as "cease" and "do without".

[Zarabelle]

Please understand that people are trying to help you. If we all said 'Yay for you - carry on the way you are' then we would be misleading you. I don't see why you are verbally attacking people that are trying to help you.............

[liv]

Originally Posted by Chicklady

Just an observation in regards to following the 2002 book....

I've got the red covered one....turn to page 232. There begins a menu for the first week of induction which Akins says to follow strictly and then repeat in week 2. Here are his OWN contradictions to his rules, and no, they aren't all products his company sells:
Monday:
Veal Scallop w. white wine caper sauce(his recipe).... contains wine and bake mix
snack: controlled carb shake (speaks for itself)

Wednesday
Homemade chicken soup(his recipe) ....contains carrots

thursday
turkey cutlets w green peppercorn(his recipe)....contains bake mix

friday
(brkfst) 2 bran crackers....speaks for itself

saturday

roasted garlic veg dip (his recipe)contains carrots

sunday
zucchini nut bread(his recipe) contains bake mix AND almonds
snack...controlled carb shake... speaks for itself

I'm just saying....you guys are jumping on this guy wayyyyy too hard.

My 2 cents.

I don't think anyone are jumping on this guy too hard. I am concerned about a couple of things. According to his first post he has never been able to do Atkins - now reading what he eats when he tries to do induction - goes far in explaining why he cannot stick to the plan. Every single woman's issue is full of plans where you can lose that first 10 lbs easily and you can just about any old way but the problem is how are you (and in this case DD) going to succeed. I think he is on the wrong path. Eating a much more cleaner induction menu in my opinion is a place to start. The stuff he is doing is plainly not healthy. And I think in the long run not sustainable.

About the discrepancies in the book. The only explanation that I have come across is a post on this board by 2big I think. She says that when they put together DANDR there was some pasting from older copies and some errors did happen. There are some others in the recipes as well.