Percentages

[ldyj]

Could someone please let me know how the fat/protein/carb percentages were established? I can't find the info in DANDR (2002). Of course, I could have missed it - even though I've now read it twice!

[not2late]

Re: Percentages

It's not in the book. It was taken from the Duke University Study. Dr. ATkins was a consultant for the study. They analysed the Induction menues and found those percentages.

The percentages are really a guide/tool, just like the ketostix are a guide/tool.

[Reborn_Warrior]

Re: Percentages

IMHO, if it is not in the book don't do it. Dr. Atkins says nothing about %'s for induction. So in other words, if you are using ratios, counting calories, worried about how much fat you are eating during induction, then you are not doing Atkins correctly.

If you start adding things like carb/protein/fat ratios, which are not part of the Atkins Induction phase, what is wrong then with doing what they say on Atkins.com? They say you may eat things like Atkins low-carb bread or bars on induction. I believe if you are following the 2002 DANDR then do what it says and don't deviate from it.

This is a simple WOE, no reason to make it complicated.

[CBell444]

Re: Percentages

What are the recommended percentages? Where can I find more info on that?

[Georgiana]

Re: Percentages

What are the recommended percentages? Where can I find more info on that?

The approximate percentages are 65% fat, 5% carbohydrate, 30% protein.

IMHO, if it is not in the book don't do it. Dr. Atkins says nothing about %'s for induction. So in other words, if you are using ratios, counting calories, worried about how much fat you are eating during induction, then you are not doing Atkins correctly.

Your reasoning is actually wrong. Just because it is not necessary to count calories or use ratios, it does not mean they are not important, nor does it mean one is not doing Atkins correctly by keeping an eye on these things.

Calories. Most of us got fat not because we were eating a cup of pasta or a thin slice of rye bread at a meal, but because more often than not a cup of pasta grew into a whole bag and a thin slice grew into a whole loaf. That's why on Atkins, we need to retrain our brains and learn portion control, and Dr. Atkins explained a strategy to do this in DANDR. However, after years of overeating, some folks have trouble distinguishing between real, stomach hunger and brain hunger, and thus overeat. Overeating, as Dr. Atkins wrote, will cause our weight loss to slow down, stall or even go up, regardless of the number of carbohydrates we are consuming, because this diet "does not give you a license to gorge". While I agree it's better to teach yourself the difference between hunger and eating for the sake of stuffing your belly, knowing how many calories you are consuming is not against Atkins.

Percentages. You can do without if you have read the whole book, including the part where it says that excess protein will be converted into glucose. Then you would understand that Atkins is a high fat, moderate protein, low carbohydrate diet and if you were to enter a few menus in FitDay or some other simiar tool, you'd see that your percentages fall naturally around 65%, 5%, 30%. But not everyone reads the book or some read it while doing Induction, so they don't get to read the "protein can convert to glucose" part, which only appears in one of the last chapters. Others simply forget this statement. It is then important to remind these people what overeating protein will do to their weight loss and, since everybody might have a different definition of "overeating protein", it's good to give the percentages which were used in the studies overseen by Dr. Atkins. I mean, it is clear that Dr. Atkins wanted to see the best results coming out of those studies since they were funded by the Atkins Center, isn't it?

If you start adding things like carb/protein/fat ratios, which are not part of the Atkins Induction phase, what is wrong then with doing what they say on Atkins.com? They say you may eat things like Atkins low-carb bread or bars on induction. I believe if you are following the 2002 DANDR then do what it says and don't deviate from it.

First of all, DANDR 2002 was (obviously) written when Dr. Atkins was alive, so those who were wondering how much protein is too much were able to call the Center and ask. We had members at ADBB who actually did that and the answer was the one we keep saying on the Board.

Second, the protein percentage (30%) was actually mentioned by Dr. Atkins in one of his other books (yes, I know we're following DANDR... I'll get there in a minute). The carbohydrate percentage comes to roughly 5% for the carbs we are allowed during the Induction phase (~100 calories counting calories for soluble fiber as 2 kcal/g) on a 2000 calories diet (2000 is the number recommended by USDA). Roughly 65% is what is then left for fat.

Third, if you take a look at the sample menu on page 133 of DANDR 2002, you will see that the percentages come out to about 65% fat, 5% carbs, 30% protein.

Now the bars and other frankenfoods. While Dr. Atkins recommended 65% fat, 5% carbs, 30% protein to his patients and in the studies he oversaw and in his books (more or less straightforward in writing), the man was never happy about people consuming frankenfoods, as one can find out from his biography. Years ago, there was actually a page on atkins.com saying that Atkins products may stall weight loss for some people---that page has since been removed. We have also seen often at ADBB how members consuming these products are stalled and their weight loss restarts as soon as they drop them.

Therefore we would be irresponsible if we didn't warn members about the effect frankenfoods can have on their weight loss. On the other hand, not overeating protein and making Atkins a high fat diet (as it is supposed to be!) is in the best interest of Atkineers, especially as everyone would like to get the best results out of his/her weight loss efforts. And while the percentages are something Dr. Atkins used for best results with his patients and in studies, frankenfoods are not.

[pinkfusion]

Re: Percentages

^^^ Thank you for that.

I have a tendency (from old die-hard habits) to gravitate to eat more protein than fat, so the percentages are a very helpful guideline for me in assuring that I am staying higher in fat than protein.

[Reborn_Warrior]

Re: Percentages

Not to be argumentative, but using ratios is not following anything that Dr. Atkins wrote in any of his books in regards to induction.

If the 2002 DANDR is suppose to be the ‘bible’, then we should follow it. I think when someone is new and they start Atkins and there are told to read ‘The Book’, throwing out Fitday, ratios and the like is just more confusing.

If it is not in the book than you are not doing Induction correctly. Dr. Atkins says exactly what to do. As long as you eat the foods he has listed, keep it under 20 carbs, exercise, and don’t stuff yourself you should be fine. Once you start adding things that are not in the book (like ratios), than you is no longer doing what Dr. Atkins said to do during Induction.

Dr. Atkins designed Induction to be simple. He wanted people to lose pounds without getting frustrated about counting other things besides carbs. I would imagine he designed it similar to what Weight Watchers did with points because that was easy and effective for many people. Once you start worrying about all your ratios at the BEGINNING of Atkins, you are taking that simplicity and throwing it out the window. I see some posters on here thinking they are doing Induction wrong because their not using ratios. That is what Dr. Atkins wanted to avoid.

If someone is going to do Atkins they should pick one of his programs and do it. If they want to do the 1972 version do that. If they want to do the 2002 version or what the Atkins people put out follow that. But mixing them up and adding things that are not part of Induction, like ratios, is not doing Atkins correctly.

Okay, off my soapbox now and off to have some pork chops!

[Slapshot]

Re: Percentages

I hate to oversimplify this here, but it seems like this is a chicken-egg argument. But, if one follows the rules of induction (without worrying about percentages), it seems to me that magically, the percentages will generally be in line with the 65/30/5 numbers. I think you're all agreeing/saying the same thing.

[Georgiana]

Re: Percentages

Not to be argumentative, but using ratios is not following anything that Dr. Atkins wrote in any of his books in regards to induction.

If the 2002 DANDR is suppose to be the ‘bible’, then we should follow it. I think when someone is new and they start Atkins and there are told to read ‘The Book’, throwing out Fitday, ratios and the like is just more confusing.

If it is not in the book than you are not doing Induction correctly. Dr. Atkins says exactly what to do. As long as you eat the foods he has listed, keep it under 20 carbs, exercise, and don’t stuff yourself you should be fine. Once you start adding things that are not in the book (like ratios), than you is no longer doing what Dr. Atkins said to do during Induction.

Dr. Atkins designed Induction to be simple. He wanted people to lose pounds without getting frustrated about counting other things besides carbs. I would imagine he designed it similar to what Weight Watchers did with points because that was easy and effective for many people. Once you start worrying about all your ratios at the BEGINNING of Atkins, you are taking that simplicity and throwing it out the window. I see some posters on here thinking they are doing Induction wrong because their not using ratios. That is what Dr. Atkins wanted to avoid.

If someone is going to do Atkins they should pick one of his programs and do it. If they want to do the 1972 version do that. If they want to do the 2002 version or what the Atkins people put out follow that. But mixing them up and adding things that are not part of Induction, like ratios, is not doing Atkins correctly.

Okay, off my soapbox now and off to have some pork chops!

Oh man.... Didn't a member start exactly the same discussion on the Board last year?

http://www.atkinsdietbulletinboard.com/forums/main-atkins-diet-forum/56707-why-do-people-induction-use-things-like-fitday-count.html

[jimmie 48]

Re: Percentages

I hate to oversimplify this here, but it seems like this is a chicken-egg argument. But, if one follows the rules of induction (without worrying about percentages), it seems to me that magically, the percentages will generally be in line with the 65/30/5 numbers. I think you're all agreeing/saying the same thing.

exactly!

[JulieB]

Re: Percentages

No where in the book does it say to breathe or shower, but I choose to do both regularly. I feel that I can use any tool I find helpful as long as I am not breaking any of the rules in the book, and am not eating anything that isn't on the list of allowed foods for induction. I don't think ratios or Fitday are necessary to do the diet properly, they are simply additional tools I can use to help me succeed. Using them is not, in my opinion, "not doing Atkins correctly" - it is helping me do just that.

Nobody on this board tells anyone they have to use Fitday or ratios - use of either of these is suggested in response to questions from people who haven't read the book, didn't completely understand it, or have such a distorted idea of how to eat properly (like me) they have difficulty knowing when they are "satisfied".

[jimmie 48]

Re: Percentages

all i want to add here is this....

if the percentages work for you, then use them. they are a tool.
if you choose not to use them, don't. either way, if you're eating according to plan, you are doing atkins.

[not2late]

Re: Percentages

I hate to oversimplify this here, but it seems like this is a chicken-egg argument. But, if one follows the rules of induction (without worrying about percentages), it seems to me that magically, the percentages will generally be in line with the 65/30/5 numbers. I think you're all agreeing/saying the same thing.

I didn't follow percentages when I started and the time that I did to examine mine----I really fell down the rabbit hole and didn't get out until I re-read the book: specifically the part about "regular" exercisers having CCLLs greater than 60.

I didn't count calories: I just relied on following what my body told me to do. If 1 hard-boiled egg and a cup of green beans satisfied my hunger, that's all I ate for that meal. If it took an 8 ounce steak, a cup of broccoli and an ounce or two of cheese, that's what I ate for that meal. I never looked at a calorie number and said "I have to make sure I eat exactly that number every single day." Nope. I let my body tell me what it needed.

But then, I read the book cover to cover. I took notes. I made photocopies of the Induction Rules, the Induction Food List, the OWL Rungs, etc. It sounds excessive and slightly obsessive, but I didn't want to leave anything to chance and I didn't want to screw up the Diet in any way because I didn't know pinto beans weren't allowed on Induction or because I didn't know that 2 cups of cottage cheese wasn't 5 net carbs. And because I didn't find this Board until after I had started my Atkins, so I had to rely on soley me to do this Diet correctly.

But not everyone does what I did.

[neutronnorman]

Re: Percentages

Yup, Georgianna and Slapshot are totally correct. How do I know? Don't ask. Trust me on that one.

[ldyj]

Re: Percentages

Wow! And I just wanted to make sure that the fact that my proteins were less and my fats were more most days weren't going to cause me problems! I really did do a search before I asked my question (I always do) but I searched for "percentage" instead of "percentages." I don't know why it would make a difference, but apparently it did, because nothing came up using percentage.

Thanks for a wonderful discussion - I love to hear all sides!