IT IS THE CARBS THAT ARE KILLING YOU.

[Iapetus999]

Bumping this topic because it deserves to be.
Does anyone know how I can copy it to the Men's Forum?

[RationalBeing]

Ok, bill and Iap, if you guys are still reading this thread I have a few comments.

Bill, you keep stressing how "bacon, eggs and meat is the natural diet for millions of years for humans." I believe you are quite askew on this fact. The truth of the matter is that no doubt meat is natural to mankind as a whole but nitrates and farm animals in general is not. Keep in mind that all the farm animals we eat today are fed grains and such.

Also consider this: It is a known fact that cooked meats contain over 100 known carcinogens to the human body. WOW! So in all honesty bill, what you're actually doing is trading diabetes for cancer with the massive quanities of cooked bacon and meat that you've mentioned you eat. So what is the real solution to all of this? Eating raw meat, and uncooked (unpasteurized) foods.

So why am I on this board? I suppose because eating a diet consisting of raw meat is extremely difficult and dangerous to some extent. Why do the japanese live so long (or used to)... raw fish is the "meat an potatoes" of their diet. Compare that to the irish of 100 years ago who used to eat mainly potatoes.

I see your argument about diabetes, there is no doubt that eating the atkins way (WOL) is a major step up. However I should only hope that you (and the rest of us) don't get cancer from it.

[Desertthorn]

Rational, Your point is well taken, but unfortunately, the way we are eating fish now adays, the ocean may be depleted before we die of cancer. The only alternative is farm fish, which will also be genetically altered.
Iapetus, this should be made into a sticky and posted on the diabetic board, but I don't have that ability either as I don't have access to either. You may want to ask 2big, Brook, Christie or Danny to do it for you.

[Iapetus999]

Bill, you keep stressing how "bacon, eggs and meat is the natural diet for millions of years for humans."

OK you got him on the bacon.
And of course we really don't know how people ate 100,000 years ago. We know they hunted and gathered somewhere in the jungle/savanah.
They probably were near starvation half the time.
Either feast or famine.

As far as carcinogens go, broccoli, asparagus, and a bunch of other vegetables have known carcinogens in them too
(see this link http://phys4.harvard.edu/~wilson/HolidayMenu.html)

No one is advocating a diet consisting of red meat. Or just broccoli.
Just something that is more fat & protein than carbs.

[Monet]

Thanks for bumping this UP. WOW! I really LOVE THIS PLACE! I learn so damn much each day...just when I feel down POW...more information.

All I can say is....the medical center I work at has over 7000 employees, many who are vegetarians and who ironically are FAT. There is a rise in the amount of people who are now PROUD to say they are on Atkins. (hey, that sounds like good slogan for a T-Shirt )

[Iapetus999]

We are F.A.T. ... Fanatical Atkins Touters!

[Bill T]

Rational,

Not sure I said bacon and eggs is the natural diet, although maybe. What has been the natural diet until very recent decades is protein and fat, with a few carbs mixed in as seasonally available. In nature, carbs are scarce.

One common misconception is that Atkineers eat "massive quantities of cooked bacon and meat." Perhaps I have been unclear . . . I consume a total of 1800 - 2000 calories per day, which means I consume less meat, on average, than do most non Atkineers. My diet: two eggs and two strips of bacon for breakfast, approximately 6 oz. of meat, fish or poultry for lunch and dinner. Add in a modest amount of fresh fruit and veggies and lots of water, a diet soda now and then, a slice of Atkins bread at lunch and dinner and a bit of the new ultra low-carb foods here and there, and that's it except for a rare glass of wine or a Michelob Ultra (2.6 grams of carbs per bottle).

Not sure why feeding farm animals grain is a negative, but actually very few farm animals are feed a steady diet of grain. (I am fairly experienced in these matters.) Most of the meat you buy in the supermarket, if it is quality meat, was fed grain the last couple weeks before slaughter to fatten them up and marble the meat a little. (By the way, "marbling" is fat, so another way of saying all this is that the livestock are feed carbs to make them fat.) Until the last couple weeks, they live on some combination of hay, pasturage and silage.

Would suggest thinking twice about consuming nonpasturized diary products, although I certainly know farm families who drink raw milk every day. But even farm families understand that drinking nonpasteurized milk that was in the utter a couple hours ago is not the same as consuming nonpasteurized products that have been sitting on some shelf for some time.

As for diabetes and Atkins . . . if you have not had the problem you have no idea how devastating diabetes symptoms are. My life was over. Not sure a human can feel worse day to day than I did for years. This part is really, really important, Rational -- ALL my lab numbers, including cholesterol, were off the chart in the worst way when I was eating a "regular" diet. Now, ALL my numbers are normal . . . many are excellent. I have lost 50 pounds and have kept it off. A heart-stress test (treadmill) recently showed my heart and arteries to all be clean as a whistle. Only rarely do I crave any food. I walk nine holes of golf two - three times weekly, with the clubs on my back. Couldn't walk up the front steps to the house for the last couple pre-Atkins years. Used to take the sidewalk around to the back door.

I was an athlete throughout high school and college and for many years thereafter. Spent four years in the Marine Corps and used to jog 30 miles per week. But as I got a little older and the athletic stuff got further and further in the past, my typical American carb-based diet began to kill me, and that's no figure of speech. Had I not been so physically active my entire life, I no doubt would have been a fat blob much earlier. I am now in great shape, and it is my experience that the large majority of Atkineers experience similar results.

My wife and I have a retail store in our little town. Recently a class from the elementary school three blocks away was on some sort of field trip. Bunch of 3rd or 4th graders came parading down the sidewalk with the teacher. We watched them go by the front display window and were thunderstruck. Almost every one of these little kids was fat, and the teacher was obese. My guess is these people are, for the most part, carb abusers who consume lots of bread, potatoes, soft drinks (including fruit juice), grains, cereals, snacks and so on.

The real lesson of Atkins, Bernstein and other highly educated and experienced carb-control advocates is not that you should pig out on bacon and eggs. The real lesson is you shouldn't pig out on anything. Nothing is consumed in massive quantities. But when you do eat, control your carbs to the extent you consume a considerably higher percentage of your calories in protein and fat than the high-carb advocates say you should. They are wrong. Dead wrong. The Atkins way is the natural way. Entire geographic regions paved in grain fields, orchards and sugar-beet fields is hardly natural. Astonishingly, we actually eat all that overabundance. Carb foods are concentrated blood-sugar bombs, but they do have a place in the diet. Nature, however, cast them in a minor supporting role. Modern America has recast them as the featured stars, but every single one of us must admit that since carbs became the stars, Americans have become the fattest people on the planet -- by far. Just look around. We now commonly have 10 and 12 year olds being diagnosed with "adult onset" diabetes. So we no longer call it adult onset. Now it is Type II. Also, one should be careful to not confuse dietary fat with body fat; they are two entirely different things. The fastest way to accumulate body fat is to eat carbs. Elsewhere in this thread I have explained the biochemistry of all this.

As for the carcinogens, there has been so much bad science and rumor quoted on this. Be assured there has been tons of good science conducted and published which says there is no connection between meat and cancer. This much is indisputable: The huge leap in American cancer rates coincides exactly with the American shift to a carb-based diet in the 1950s. There is undoubtedly more involved, but the precise timing of the landing of the carb-bomb in the 50s and the stunning increase in cancer rates is a fact.

It is the carbs that are killing us.

[RationalBeing]

Bill & Iap,

Bill I do agree with your conclusion related to diabetes and carbohydrates. I have no doubt your arguments are valid and true, as I have seen a friend of mine's parents (who are diabetics) have all their lab numbers vastly increased in the past 2 months from starting the atkins WOL. Interestingly my friend's father is a retired heart surgeon.

However cooking food is a new thing for humans. No animal in nature cooks its food before it eats it. Doesn't THAT strike you as odd? However, making conjectures about what we do today versus what is natural is impossible to say. Human beings thousands of years ago never lived past age 35. Agriculture wasn't invented until 10,000 years ago so even the veggies we humans eat today aren't "natural" . Potatoes for example were invented only 500 years ago in fact. So whether cooking food and eating carbs is "natural" is basically irrelevant to our lives today, when people live double the lifespan or more of all previous ancestors. Diabetes didn't exist thousands of years go because no one got old enough to get it, and were probably weeded out by natural selection genetically. Today diabetics and other diseased people are sheltered by society (no preditors, and may even get socialist taxpayer funded payments) and by modern medicine.

HOWEVER, science has certainly shown that cooked food contains massive quantities of carcinogens. And also that carbohydrates are the best form of fuel and energy for the human body (ever heard of a marathon runner who didn't eat pasta the night before?). However, as atkins has pointed out, refined simple carbs that are nutrient deficient such as those in soft drinks and white bread leave us hungry and wanting more, in order to get the nutrients we need to live. THat is what is making humans fat and diabetic these days. So avoidance of those, no doubt is the key. And eating uncooked food and uncooked meat certainly will greatly reduce your risk of cancer.

So, if I have all this knowlege, why am I overweight and on this board? Because those bad foods taste good and my career has me sitting in a chair 14 hours a day. The thing is, your personal health is always a choice and its in every individuals power to make choices about their own weight and health. No one can blame anyone but themselves. Blaming the government for telling us wrong information is not right (government is just speical interests controlling "law enforcement"). Blaming advertising, etc is not right either (throw out your tv, or turn it off). So the best thing you can do is do your own research and conclude what is right and what is wrong based on evidence, experimentation etc. Eating terrible, carb laden food was a choice of mine and now i'm choosing to change that. But eating cooked meats is not very good at all for you.

[brandywine1241]

Rational,
I disagree with you that blaming the government is not right. They are using OUR money to fund research and I think we have the right to demand an accurate reporting of that research.

By the way, do you have some references that support the statement that cooked meats contain massive quantities of carcinogens? I would be most interested.

I do know that people have died from ingesting e-coli in poorly cooked meat and salmonella in uncooked eggs has made people sick. So I guess this would be about balancing the risks, wouldn't it?

[Sherri]

Originally Posted by Bill T

Recently there was a post on this board which pretty much illustrates the misunderstanding the public has regarding Atkins.

This nonsensical and often angry attitude has to originate somewhere, doesn't it? And, yes, once again, I point the finger of blame at the ADA, AMA and the processed food industry. And once again I can come up with only one possible motivation on their part -- money.

Surely it has occurred to all of you that it is somewhat odd that the only weight-loss WOL that works -- the truly natural approach -- is the only approach that is constantly bombarded with ridicule and criticisms that are utterly untrue. This board and the rest of the country is full of people who have lost a great deal of weight on Atkins and kept it off. Every non-low carb program has countless failures. Everyone fails on them. You have failed on those other programs, perhaps many times, as have I. Perhaps everyone you know who has a weight problem has failed on them. Atkins veterans, on the other hand, are mostly far lighter, healthier and happier than before they adopted the WOL.

So how come all these other proven failures . . . all these other programs . . . virtually 100% of the followers of which regain their short-lived weight losses and then some . . . how come all those other programs aren't criticized as being capable of only temporary weight loss? Or why is it their dieters weight loss is not "water loss." Or why won't those programs "kill you."

The reason is simple: the ADA, the AMA and the processed food industries don't give a hoot about all those others because all those others don't work, and they will not, therefore, reduce obesity in America, and obesity is the beast behind the astronomical carb sales, medical treatments and pharmaceutical sales. Atkins across the board would change everything. Diabetes alone accounts for a tremendous income for the above mentioned industries, and, in my lay opinion, resumption of the dietary patterns that existed in this country prior to about 1950 would wipe out the majority of that income for those industries.

I am not the only Atkins diabetic who has lost great weight, thrown away the medication and feels so much better than I did on a carb-based diet that there are not words to express the great improvement. There are armies of us. All my lab numbers are greatly improved and in normal range. My doc at one time said I had one foot in the grave. Now nothing holds me back, not even the anti-Atkins commandos, who can be found everywhere . . . including on this board. Their standard tactics of misrepresentation and obfuscation never change. They are so intent on preserving their cash cow that some of them will misrepresent, distort, throw out all manner of ridiculous criticism about the LC WOL and do their utmost to demonize Atkins, Bernstein, you, me . . . anyone who is a threat. And every time another Atkins follower loses 20 or 50 or 100 pounds, they get a little more nervous because they know there is an good chance that weight is going to stay off.

I suggest we not let them misdirect us or cloud the issues with meaningless patter or trumped up criticisms designed to divert your attention. In DANDR he asks us to "speak up" because the evangelism is needed to combat the distortions. I have suggested to others that we not settle for speaking up, let's force the issue. People who have meant much to me have died young because of a carb-based diet and its toxic effects on diabetes sufferers. Others on this board have related similar personal tragedies. Countless others have died from the same causes in the last 50 years. Twenty years from now, maybe ten, I believe, no reasonable person will doubt the connection between carbs and obesity, disease and illness. But for now, with the high-carb lie just starting its death throes, let's increase the pressure on the beast.

It is the carbs that are killing us.

I am part of this Army that Bill speaks of. I too, a type 2 diabetic, once weighed 374 lbs. My health was declining to a point where I had a handful of red flags facing me. With the observation of my physician, I began Atkins in July 2004. I went through Induction with grace and lost 18 lbs. I was sold! 48 days later my Type 2 diabetes vanished and I no longer required two types of medication to treat it. It was, and is, controlled by diet alone. After losing 100 lbs. in ten months, my High Blood pressure was steadily dropping and after a year, I got to throw the medication for it away. I no longer had high blood pressure. After about 16 months I lost 155 lbs. I got my life back! Everything Bill speaks of is so TRUE. I shop for my groceries on the outer perimiter of the grocers where all the fresh food is sold and the only packaged or canned food in my house for me are either organic or canned tuna, mayo, etc. No prefabbed food! I call the inner isles of the grocers Fast Food! It's just as dangerous to eat them as it is to go through a drive through McDonalds. It's simply poison for our bodies. I too have lost many family members and friends because of the carb filled food in their diets. It was up to me to make changes, first with myself and then those I care about and then those that would listen. Now I go into schools and teach third graders how to read food labels and teach them how many forms there are of sugar. They are amazed! I also teach them healthier food choices. I end the class with an organic treat that they all enjoy. Usually something I've baked. I've been doing this for three years now and I'll have students come up to me and tell me thank you and let me know that they now read food labels. It just takes a tiny stone to make a ripple. Won't you make a difference? Please speak out and make yourself heard. Be part of the Atkins Army. Thank you Bill T for this post!