The Great Debate: Calories in Calories Out

[LC_Dave]

There has been a lot of flamey debate on other boards (mainly 'general' low carb boards (not necessarily Atkins Plan)) about the role of calories consumed in weight loss.

Some are adament that you must consciously restrict intake for weight loss, and others adhere more to Dr Atkins view that (although calories do count) you don't have to count calories if you restrict carbohydrates.

I have only gotten more Obese by restricting calories. Now, without concern for calories I am loosing a lot of weight by restricting carbohydrates.

I believe in the 'metabolic advantage' that Dr Atkins talks about because I feel it happening to myself.

Participating in other forums, it actually saddenned and upset me quite a bit that people where giving advice to others like: 'perhaps your calorie intake is too high' etc etc.

Dr Atkins does proscribe a 'fat fast' to initiate weight loss when people are stalled, who are metabolically impaired. But it seems that people are still advising others to restrict their food intake.

I don't like the insinuation that overweight people are overweight because of their massive intake. Being on the Atkins plan, and living as an obese person - my experience tells me that that reasoning is total BS!!

I know on this forum we follow the 2002 DANDR (which is why I love it here). I am interested though on people's opinion on the Great Calorie Debate that is happening in the Low Carb Community.

[ttdriver]

Re: The Great Debate: Calories in Calories Out

I believe, initially, that calories matter little when switching to a fat burning metabolism (ketosis). However .. as you progress through the 4 phases of Atkins, calories become more important. You simply must restrict calories as your weight loss slows ... and you must BURN MORE CALORIES (i.e. exercise) if you hope to keep the weight off long term. After 4 years on maintenance, I believe I have this thing figured out!



Betty

[Catkins]

Re: The Great Debate: Calories in Calories Out

This is totally off topic. Sorry about that but TTDriver, I am really inspired by your photos. What are your stats? When did you start Atkins and how much did you weigh and all that?....that is if you don't mind me asking.

[wannabethintoo]

Re: The Great Debate: Calories in Calories Out

I agree with what Betty said. I think that as you get closer to goal...calories will need to be watched.

[LC_Dave]

Re: The Great Debate: Calories in Calories Out

I believe, initially, that calories matter little when switching to a fat burning metabolism (ketosis). However .. as you progress through the 4 phases of Atkins, calories become more important. You simply must restrict calories as your weight loss slows ... and you must BURN MORE CALORIES (i.e. exercise) if you hope to keep the weight off long term. After 4 years on maintenance, I believe I have this thing figured out!



Betty

Betty what are your thoughts on the role of CCL and maintenance. Say for example if someone has to start watching calories, would their CCL be a bit too high, and pehaps they should bring the carbs down ?

[ttdriver]

Re: The Great Debate: Calories in Calories Out

Betty what are your thoughts on the role of CCL and maintenance. Say for example if someone has to start watching calories, would their CCL be a bit too high, and pehaps they should bring the carbs down ?

I think its most important to cut back on fat intake during maintenance. As you know, fat is very calorically dense, so if you cut back fat, you also reduce calories. My CCL is around 50-60 carbs a day and I exercise ALOT. But I'm also a very petite person, so I can't eat alot and get away with it. I don't count calories per se, but I am mindful of how much I eat.

IMO, everyone should keep tabs on the amount of calories they eat and how many they burn off with rigorous exercise, whether in maintenance or not.

Betty

[ttdriver]

Re: The Great Debate: Calories in Calories Out

This is totally off topic. Sorry about that but TTDriver, I am really inspired by your photos. What are your stats? When did you start Atkins and how much did you weigh and all that?....that is if you don't mind me asking.

Thank you, Catkins. (I love your screen name, by the way .. I have a cat who really needs to go on CATKINS!)

I started out at 133 pounds in January 2002. I know, that doesn't sound fat, but believe me, as petite as I am, IT WAS!! Plus, I was a bonafide couch potato .. never exercised ..always had excuses ...

January 19, 2002, I started my Atkins journey, in hopes to lose 15 pounds. I underestimated this woe!! I lost 27 pounds within 11 months ... and have since lost another 7 pounds ... kept it off easily with lots of cardio exercise and weight training .. never joined a gym .. just started walking a mile a day the same day I started Atkins .. then in Nov 2003 I started jogging ...

Today, I run 35 miles a week and will be running a full marathon next month! I just turned 50 and feel better than I did when I was 25!!

Betty

[LC_Dave]

Re: The Great Debate: Calories in Calories Out

I think its most important to cut back on fat intake during maintenance. As you know, fat is very calorically dense, so if you cut back fat, you also reduce calories. My CCL is around 50-60 carbs a day and I exercise ALOT. But I'm also a very petite person, so I can't eat alot and get away with it. I don't count calories per se, but I am mindful of how much I eat.

IMO, everyone should keep tabs on the amount of calories they eat and how many they burn off with rigorous exercise, whether in maintenance or not.

Betty

Betty, would you say that you must consciously decline that second helping of pudding (whatever), or does your appetitie help you decline it ?

Do you think you (or perhaps others) would overeat naturally, left to their own devises (even though they are within their CCL) ?

Or would you suggest just a general watch over intake/ portion sizes in general, combined with exercise of course ?

[sadie147]

Re: The Great Debate: Calories in Calories Out

Dave, In maintenace I kept my carbs below my ACE over the summer however I let the fat (and therefore the calories) get too high. I put on a few lbs. I tried going back to basic induction for two weeks and actually gained weight. The calories were just too high. I think our bodies change somehow as we get closer to that goal weight.

Ketosis suppresses your appetite, that is a known fact. When you get to maintenace you are no longer in ketosis, so that hunger comes back, and you must deal with that, and you must watch your food intake.

Or perhaps everyone is different, but from what I've seen the closer to their goal weight they get, most people have to watch their intake.

Or would you suggest just a general watch over intake/ portion sizes in general, combined with exercise of course ?

I think this is right on. This is also a phsychological journey, and we must learn to deal with our emotional eating issues, why we eat, when etc. Portion control is the key to successful weighloss and maintaining and you must learn how do to that, no matter what WOE you are on.

On atkins, you are told to eat untill you are full, not stuffed. I honestly believe if you gorged yourself on food everday until you were stuffed, you'd have problems losing on this woe no matter how many carbs you consumed.

I think in the end, a calorie is a calorie.

[2big4mysize]

Re: The Great Debate: Calories in Calories Out

Yes the metabolic advantage of eating a ketogenic plan allows us to eat 25-30% more cals then if we were highcarbing cause it takes more cals to process fats and proteins from mouth to energy units then it does carbs but

one thing many folk miss who don't read their DANDR cover to cover is Dr Atkins actually does say if cals in exceed cals out from all sources you will gain weight NO MATTER WHAT PLAN DANDR CHAPTER 11 Q and A ( everybody runs to get their book and read the second paragraph of it)

Many many folk don't seem to understand is Dr Atkins plan is CALORIE CONTROL through Carbohydrate control. Dr Atkins repeatedly talks about how satisfying a few nmacadamia nuts are, an ounce of luscious cream cheese, i mean it makes you drool just reading him extol the virtues of high fat foods but he always takes about a bit or a few not stuff your belly to capasitiy.

He knows proteins and fats are very satisfying so they will be self limiting IF and that is a big IF we listen to our bodies and feed only our hunger and not our eyeballs nor our belly capasity.

He tells us over and over to feed only our hunger and STOP when our hunger is satisfied. period, no matter how much food is felt on the plate, how much room in in our bellies nor how many carbs we have left in our budget. Just stop. he even gives lessons in DADNR for those large folk who are out of touch with their hunger. He says eat half the food on the plate and stop put the food away and don't eat it until you get hungry later. he tells us to practice that until we learn to listen to our hunger.

So he controls our carbs for us and teaches us how to learn what healthy carbby foods we can and can't handle based on our own metabolisms and genes while in appetite control of stable blood sugar and diminish appetite from the side effects of ketosis. We control our protein and fat consuption by the self limiting nature of the fats and proteins satisfying our hunger. Togather we have food control and as such we have calorie control and most folk doing Atkins don't even realize they have it.

For anybody who doubts they do go look at your induction beginning eating when you ate lots of food cause Dr Atkins told you to eat whenever you were hungry and coming off your prior high carb diet you were very hungry before your ketosis kicked in.

Then look at your post ketosis kicking in eating and you will see your cals went down. i know mine went down about 2000 cals from the beginning of induction to the middle of my extended induction and even my maintenance cals are less.

And it is a good thing we do cause as lighter folk we need less cals to do the exact same thing 9 cals/pounds for ladies and 14 cals/pound for guys in just your BRM so if you don't increase your caloric out put by upping your exercise or becoming more active in your life style your weight loss will grind to a halt eating the same amount of food as you did in the early phases of your Atkins.



LC Dave how much have your cals dropped from Day one and how much has your activities picked up?

[LC_Dave]

Re: The Great Debate: Calories in Calories Out

LC Dave how much have your cals dropped from Day one and how much has your activities picked up?

I've never 'precisely' checked my cals to the letter, but I know I am consuming less, and also less empty sugar calories (ie. no more 150 gram blocks of choclate in one sitting etc)

My energy output in terms on normal exercise has remained the same - ie. inactive. But I am no longer tired and worn out and sleepy, so perhaps I am up longer etc.

I am planning on starting an exercise regime soon. 16th of January is my day of change. Starting a Candida elimination Induction and walking.

[2big4mysize]

Re: The Great Debate: Calories in Calories Out

Good for you walking is a great exercise program.

Food journaling is a very important aspect of your Atkins success so you can see what foods will cause your cracvings and how you are reacting to certain foods even if they are legal atkins foods.

Happy low carbing

[LC_Dave]

Re: The Great Debate: Calories in Calories Out

Good for you walking is a great exercise program.

Food journaling is a very important aspect of your Atkins success so you can see what foods will cause your cracvings and how you are reacting to certain foods even if they are legal atkins foods.

Happy low carbing

Even though this is slightly OT,
I find that processed cheese is a problem for me, and that I should stick to the aged cheeses as per DANDR.

[Kent]

Re: The Great Debate: Calories in Calories Out

I have never counted intentionally Calories at all on this diet. I have had major days of eating high amounts of food (even in Maintenance), but some of those same days are days in which I lost serious amount of weights (2 pounds or more). The whole Calories in vs Calories Out = Consistent weight loss has simply never applied in my case. What has always applied in the last two years is overdoing carbs or sodium leading to water retention has always led to higher weights. Before Atkins, I consistently ate less sometimes half the amount the Calories for months with less success.

That is just my experience. Calories just matter so much less keeping your glucose under control. Not everyone's experience will be the same.

[Brook]

Re: The Great Debate: Calories in Calories Out

Hey Dave

I absolutely believe in the metabolic advantage of a low carb lifestyle. There's no two ways about it.

The truth is that calorie intake is a valid, logical thing to look at and be mindful of.

Some overweight people aren't overweight because of "massive intake", but I was when it came right down to it. I didn't get fat eating little bits here and there of this and that. I'm a binge eater and that's what landed me at 234lbs at my highest. I *do* have to be mindful of what I'm taking in vs expending.

At first, I didn't have to watch calories. I ate a lot and I never tracked them. But when I hit about 165ish lbs, I hit a BIG plateau. I was stalled for something like 13 weeks and it was hel|. Then I figured out that a 165lb woman who wants to drop another 20lbs doesn't need to be eating 2 cheeseburgers + veggies/fruit/etc and eating a 3 egg omelette in the morning.

I am at times oblivious to the fact that I'm full. I will, at times, ignore the fact that I am full and binge just to binge.

I think it's great that you know what's true for you! The type of advice you're talking about is true for people like me. I like ADBB because it's Atkins specific. I like other low-carb sites because of the variety of plans and idea sharing that goes on in them. I glean what I can from them, keep what is useful for me, toss in my $.02 and keep on keepin' on. LOL

Eating low carb gives me more control over my eating issues. It's a tool I use to help me control what I eat and eat very healthily.

Calories count. Maybe not at first, but calories count in the long run.

I know you didn't ask me, LOL, but

Betty, would you say that you must consciously decline that second helping of pudding (whatever), or does your appetitie help you decline it ?

Do you think you (or perhaps others) would overeat naturally, left to their own devises (even though they are within their CCL) ?

Or would you suggest just a general watch over intake/ portion sizes in general, combined with exercise of course ?

1. Yes, sometimes. I have to consciously decline - because when it comes to sweets, appetite isn't an issue. LOL

2. I think that in general (there are always exceptions, but I don't know many of them) it's fact that people 30+lbs overweight are eating not only the wrong things, but too much of them, whether they're within their CCL or not. I can eat upwards of 90-110 grams of carb a day and maintain at my size and activity level. Believe me, I've put on weight staying within that range at times.

3. Yes. The things you're comparing aren't mutually exclusive. Generally watching of intake and portion sizes IS calorie control, regardless of what you're eating.